Tag Archives: romance

What’s Worse Than Dying Alone? I’ll Tell Ya.

So last night, as I slept fitfully in my fortress of bachelor solitude, in my dreams, my father came to me and he said:

“Son, I understand all this MGTOW and MRA stuff you’re doing right now, and I’m not gonna say that you’re wrong in any of your points, but my point to you is ‘What’s worse than dying alone?'”


I woke up to this, and had some deep shower thoughts about it. Ultimately, I decided that becoming my father is worse than dying alone.

Now, you gotta understand, my father’s a moderately successful man. Made good money, married well, lives on an island, in an ivory tower. We’d all be lucky to be doing as well as he has, and many of us, sadly, won’t. But he’s stated publicly, many times, that if he weren’t married, he’d give it all up, live on the swamp, in a trailer, and just go fishing all the time.


And if you had a decent career, made six figures for 20 or 30 years, that’s entirely possible. With all the principle and equity you have in 401k’s and real estate, at age 70+ you’ve probably got a million dollars, which isn’t really that much these days, but still, you could invest that smartly, and expect at least $50,000/yr interest income, live in the swamp, hunt alligators, or do an Indian motorcycle hostel tour of Europe, like you wanted to when you were young but couldn’t, because unlike the rich kids, you went to Vietnam. Or you could even put that money into a good nursing home, where they would keep you strung out on fentanyl until you died. Fentanyl is good shit, man.


But that’s not enough to keep the missus happy, so you don’t do that kinda fun stuff. Instead, you keep working, well into your 70’s, just so you can uphold a standard of living insisted upon by an old bag, who doesn’t do much for you any more. And no, I’m not referring to my mother. My mother’s a saint my father left behind, for the sake of status symbols, in the go-go Reagan 80’s. But let’s not embarrass dear old Dad and Gangy anymore than we already have…


Let’s generalize the scenario, and apply it to our own generation, which is different from the Boomers’ in key ways. Me, for instance: I just turned 36. I’m a college graduate, with ten years professional experience in the software industry. Even at the foothills of middle age, I feel that I have a bright future to anticipate. I don’t look bad, either. A girl could do a lot worse.


At my age, they say ‘all the good ones are taken’. And for the most part, they’re right…  Single women my age, best case scenario, are the victims of male sexual entitlement, having been ‘alpha-widowed’, which is to say, left behind by some high-status male like my old man, who wanted a newer trophy. I honestly believe that this scenario is more rare in my generation, because in my generation, men have more social conscience, and women, for the most part, have less. In other words, the key difference between GenX/Y and Boomers is that, due to 3rd-wave feminist empowerment, men are actually more likely to be ‘alpha-widowered’ than women. Which is exactly what has given rise to the whole modern MRA/MGTOW movement!

So here I am, 36 years old, and hormones don’t control my behavior anymore. Don’t get me wrong, when I see, through the window of a nightclub, a young, hot, 21-year-old girl dancing, as I’m walking by, on the way to the folk-music pub where everyone knows my name, I’m tempted to go in there and throw some of my disposable income at her. But I know from experience that I would be admonished as a ‘dirty old man’ for doing so, probably upset the delicate social eco-system of all the not-as-well-established guys her own age who want to fuck her (or perhaps already have), and she wouldn’t end up taking me seriously, anyway. Even if I did make it into the VIP section of her little personal club, she’d eventually rationalize pump-and-dumping me, because at their age, they’re all probably either sluts or teases. Or both, relative to different people, as the situation entices.


So I’m told to stick with women my own age. But they aren’t attractive to me. Especially the ones who’ve been left in the ‘single’ pile for awhile, often with good cause. What am I, supposed to feel sorry for them? That’s kinda difficult, seeing how I was there when, 10 or 15 years ago, they were the slutty teases dancing in clubs. And I watched them abandon many good men for superficial reasons, which they then rationalized to their friends, thus poisoning those men’s reputations with other women, in addition to breaking his heart, all to make themselves look and feel better about getting bored and wanting more varied sexual experience with that poor guy’s friends and relatives.


And if that broken-hearted guy reacted to this in any way but a good-natured ‘Thank you, sir, may I have another?’, then not only did their exes turn the community’s women against him, but they turned the males against him as well. Because when young women of primitive social ethics insist ‘he bad man’, other men eventually form a crude posse, complete with with pointy sticks and rocks, and chase the ‘bad man’ away, just so they can impress the opposite sex. We call those ‘white knights’, in my generation, and there are plenty of them. Their stock is replenished progressively in the next generation, even as it is depleted by experience-based disillusionment in the current generation. As those who peddle and exploit optimistic idealism know, there’s a sucker born every minute.


And most single women, at my age, have some bullshit like that in their background. Meanwhile, I had my head down, was graduating college and starting a career. And enduring years-long periods of social alienation that most women, with their expectations of social privilege, quite frankly, probably couldn’t survive. But now, I’m supposed to grovel for their approval, like a true southern gentleman, knowing full well how decadent, socially over-privileged, and non-committal they used to be, with their current acquiescence to ‘family values’ surely the product of some desperate survival instinct. These are known as ‘hamsters’ who have ‘hit the wall’.


And as black as their pasts may be, their futures seem to be even worse. They say the true test of love is to add fifty years or fifty pounds to the subject of your affection, and see if you still love them. Also, add to that a net financial loss from her low income that doesn’t cover her expansive tastes, frequent sabbaticals, and failed pottery studios. The hotter she is, or was, the higher maintenance, and hence, more hemorrhaging money, putting your Indian motorcycle retirement even more in jeopardy.


So, what’s worse than dying alone?

Being a slave to depreciating assets, man.


30 Reasons Why You Should NOT Date Yet Another Feminist

Most women and even many men these days claim to be feminist, even though it’s a tired, worn-out label that carries an extremely negative connotation. A more gender-neutral term is Gender Egalitarianism, which is what classy intellectuals say. But let’s face it: most of the people, male or female, who use the word ‘feminism’ are not classy intellectuals. They are shitty people who use spurious, emotion-based ideologies to rationalize irresponsible behavior and utter lack of social conscience. The cold hard truth is that, whether you’re a hardcore feminist or a hardcore masculist, you probably belong in a loony bin.

Anyway, as an often liberal idealist, but sometimes conservative pessimist, I have dated a few feminist women, and I can pretty much tell you what you are in for if you choose to waste your time with that garbage. Their rhetoric is easy to spot. In fact, I’ve built up so many defense mechanisms against these personality types, you might even say that feminism is my trauma trigger.


1. They tend to be very biased

Think about it. The word ‘feminism’ is biased in itself. It carries a connotation of matriarchy, female chauvinism, female bias, and liberal special interest. Remember that special interests are less about egalitarian ideals, and more about ‘getting theirs’, often at the expense of a generation of white males who had nothing to do with slavery or patriarchy, and are far removed from any benefits thereof. You advocate for the power of the vagina, and you HAVE a vagina! How self-centered.

Feminists tend to see things in terms of women versus men, or how men have historically hurt women, thus, they are unlikely to recognize or value your plight and perspective as a man. And this will ultimately make your relationship with them very one-sided. They seem to have difficulty acknowledging that we are all victims, and how the unique weaknesses of both sexes are used to exploit and control them.

2. They will control you socially, behind your back

Women have a power that they don’t like to admit: social power. Many people, both male and female, admire them, and that will lead to people taking their word over yours, manipulating you on their behalf, offering them opportunities that you have never had, or helping them cover up their faults to your eyes. Women will interfere in your social and professional life by misrepresenting you to the rest of the world, via claiming to be the ultimate authority on you, by virtue of having an intimate relationship with you.

3. They will attribute any problem you have with them to your own deficiency

This is predictable via the way feminists interact with you in every day life. If you express resentment of their privilege at your expense, or their oppression of you via social powers, they will say, “Wow, you have issues.” But this is merely projection. They are the ones with issues. And when they say: “You need help”… More projection. They are the ones who need your help. They need you to shut the fuck up, unquestioningly pay their bills, and stop talking about social issues in a way that doesn’t apologetically pander to the feminist cause, because it makes them look bad. So in order to discredit your complaints, they reduce your thoughts and feelings to ‘whining’ and ‘abnormal psychology’, in the minds of your community.

4. They will blast you after the break-up

Women can be just as possessive and jealous of men as men are said to be of women. Thus, after a break-up, they will talk negatively of you, whether justified or not, for the sake of cock-blocking you from any other woman who might be interested. This is their way of crippling you, socially, via an abuse of gossip power, even while they get to ‘move on’ all over the place, often with your friends and family. Or maybe they don’t want you to be with anyone who is prettier, better off, or smarter than them! Remember that totalitarians rely upon misinformation to control the public mentality, even regarding yourself, and feminists can be extremely petty.

5. They will rationalize emotionally

Those who embrace the feminine nature wholly, in defiance of the masculine perspective, often throw logic, reason, and independent thought out the window. Expect your feminist girlfriend (or boyfriend) to be a victim of groupthink, and a slave to her community, as well as an impulsive, emotional thinker rather than a reasonable person.

6. They will hold you to many double-standards

I can’t even begin to go into feminist double-standards while maintaining a pretense of comprehensiveness. They will cheat even as you are monogamist, they will look down on your perspective even while ensconcing their own, they will expect you to contribute to privilege imbalance for their benefit, at your expense, they will hold you to traditional male gender roles even as they gleefully abandon their own.

7. They will cheat on you

Feminists consider infidelity their right. To expect fidelity from a feminist is a foolish hope. Some of them might try to justify it by offering you opportunities to screw around with other women, but most of them will go to great lengths to cover up their infidelity, in order to give you a false impression of monogamy, even as they enjoy a polysexual lifestyle without you, in order to keep you ‘clean’, while they get dirtier and dirtier.

8. They will secretly, chauvinistically, consider you inferior

Again, remember that ‘feminism’ connotates a female-centric perspective. Contrary to the doctrine which they propagate, they don’t care about the equality of the sexes. They mostly believe in dominance of the male by the female, not through explicit force, but via social subterfuge. Even if you are more competent than they in technical matters, they will laugh at and take advantage of your social ineptitude, having long since realized that social power is the power that underlies the deployment of all physical force.

9. They will socially and sexually monopolize you by making you feel as if you have no other options

Beware of false consensus effect, the projected idea that you aren’t going to find anything different out there, or that all jobs are the same, all communities are the same, all women are the same… Maybe there are better jobs, communities, and love interests out there, but you are being dragged down and held back from them, by the one you’ve trusted more than anyone else. But the truth is, there are plenty of women who aren’t feminists, and maybe you would be better off with them! Or maybe you would be better off alone than enduring yet another exploitative, abusive relationship with a woman who has a typical, cookie-cutter feminist mentality.

10. They will attempt to shift your existence and perspective to a more female one

Expect your feminist girlfriend to drag you to chick flicks, feminist activist group meetings, and yoga class, just to emasculate you, and inundate you with female perspective, often one which disrespects and defies your own. Make no mistake: your feminist girlfriend has an agenda for you, and they will push it via coercion and subterfuge, if necessary.

11. They will sell you out to other liberal special interests

You haven’t fucked a black girl? You must be racist. You haven’t considered homosexuality? You must be a homophobe. You haven’t donated enough to the poor? You must be classist. As a member of a liberal kommunity, expect your feminist girlfriend to pressure you to buy into other liberal special interests. This is the socio-political source of their power: making concessions to other special interests in order to obtain their accomplice. And if they don’t have their own resources to commit to this end, yours will suffice.

12. They will support the patriarchy even while denouncing it, and you

My ex was a self-styled ‘feminist’. She cheated on me with (among others) a veteran. So how can she ever admonish anyone for ‘supporting the patriarchy’? The military is the most patriarchal organization I know of, and the biggest whore-mongers in the world. It’s all about that ‘macho man’ sense of sexual entitlement. Don’t think your woman won’t feed into that, at your expense, just because she outwardly denounces it, and YOU, for supporting it, whether you do or not, whether you have suffered by its hands moreso than them or not. Don’t think she won’t value money, systemic authority, or popularity more than your love and devotion.

13. They will play chauvinistic ego games

Even as they admonish you for judging their baggage, they will judge yours. Even as they implore you not to judge their bodies, they will laugh at the size of your penis, or your love handles, or your receding hairline. This is all about making you insecure, desperate, and more dependent upon them for self-esteem. Or even hypocritically implying that you need a woman’s love to validate your own existence, which, if you did that to them, they would cry sexism.

14. They will victim-blame you

If something happens to you, it’s your own damn fault. Even as they admonish you for ever suggesting that a woman is the cause of her own problems, they will apply this same rhetoric to you, as a man. If you resist their playing of the victim card, they will call you a victim-blamer, even as they accuse you of having a victim complex for all the times you have resisted the expectation that you take personal responsibility for everything everyone has ever done to you.

15. They will go to great lengths to cover up their shortcomings

You see, in the mind of a politically aware and active feminist, everything is a socio-political battle for moral superiority. Thus, if she fails, she will see this failure as an invalidation of her feminist ideals, and she will try to cover up that failure the way a criminal defense attorney tries to suppress evidence of her client’s guilt in court. The lengths that women are prepared to go to in order to accomplish this cover-up is ridiculous, and often defies material sense.

16. They will imply your ignorance, even via an inferior education

You have a degree in human psychology? In their minds, it will never trump that community college class they took on women’s studies. Whether they know more or not, they will assume that they are more enlightened and sensitive than you, by virtue of being female, and nothing more.

17. Your relationship with them will always be adversarial

This betrays the ideology they were raised to believe in: that you are the attacker and they are the defender. They will never trust you completely, no matter how much you trust them. You are a man, and therefore, you are the enemy, even if you are an enemy who has something they need. If you want your relationship with your woman to be like the United States’ relationship with Saudi Arabia, go ahead and date a feminist!

18. They will always be more loyal to other women than to you

Sexually, socially, economically, and politically, feminists are members of the sisterhood first, and your significant other second. Realize that women of such loyalties are leveraged far beyond the loyalty that your relationship with them entails. And don’t take it for granted that they won’t cheat on you with OTHER WOMEN, emasculating and socially imprisoning you by doing so.

19. They will deceive you

Lacking the force of physical and analytical superiority, feminists will always fall back on social dishonesty and exploitation, in order to keep you under their thumb. They see this power as a check to your own, even if you abstain from using your powers against them, as a conscientious objector to the battle of the sexes. They consider it their right to lie to you about their history, identity, and intentions.

20. They will be over-privileged, relative to you, even as they accuse you of being over-privileged

You will be hard-pressed to find a feminist who has never been invited or attended an orgy, even if such privilege is far out of your reach. Women also have more social and employment opportunities than you, even if they are incapable of taking advantage of them. They have probably lead easier lives than you, with less hardship, less systemic oppression, and more social privilege. This won’t stop them from privilege-shaming you.

21. They will have a rose-colored outlook on life

Because feminists are over-privileged, they will perceive the world through rose-colored glasses, often admonishing you as ‘negative’ or ‘judgmental’ for holding a more realist perspective, born of hardship. And if another man comes along who is willing to tell them what they want to hear, instead of the truth, watch them run off with him, leaving you out in the cold!

22. They will blame you for the actions of other men

Whether it’s their fathers, the President, the CEO of British Petroleum, or whoever, you must share the blame in solidarity with the other men, whether you condone their actions or not. Remember, to a stereotypically-thinking feminist, you are ‘one of them’. Your masculine gender assignment over-rides any individualism you may have.

23. They will judge or rate you via petty materialistic standards

Even the most liberal of women expect you to make more money then them, drive a better car, be handsome, famous, or both, and live in fancier digs. If you don’t, there must be something wrong with you. If you have renounced such priorities as a matter of ideology, they won’t respect that.

24. They will lean on the system

All liberals are dependent upon the system. Many people agree that the poor need help. Many are even willing to pay a tax to pay for it. But no one actually wants to get their hands dirty by helping the poor. Instead, they consider themselves as having done their duty simply by voting for a detached, cold, and sterile government system to treat the lepers, so that they themselves don’t have to touch them.

And if there is ever a dispute between yourself and a feminist, watch how fast they get the law, the police, the courts, even the legislature involved! Liberals are all closet authoritarians, and often depend upon a hierarchical system to carry out their biased vision of social justice.

25. They will be leeches with delusions of independence

In a society, like America’s, that runs on privilege, independence is hard to define. Many wealthy heirs will describe themselves as ‘independently wealthy’. But they aren’t independent. They are totally dependent upon their family’s wealth. Many feminists are the same way. Thought they may parlay their sympathy privilege into a successful career or higher-than-average standard of living, they are still dependent upon the community that provides for them. Only the highly capable are truly independent. And even then, a master chef still depends upon sous chefs, busboys, waiters, and stakeholders to make their culinary visions reality. Very few people are totally self-sufficient. Most of us are just gears in a larger mechanism, even if we maintain delusions of independence from or superiority to society.

26. They will neglect their physical appearance

Shaved heads, hairy armpits, and no make-up. If that sounds attractive to you, then by all means, date a feminist! Don’t expect for them to let YOU get away with not grooming, though.

The ones that dress up, they seem to be doing it for everyone else but you. You’re the one they feel like they can be their worst around, so you see the worst of them and everyone else sees their best.

27. They will exploit you on way or another

Sexually, materially, emotionally, intellectually, and socially, feminists will take advantage of you, and take more than they give, leaving you that much more bitter and dissatisfied for the next love interest that comes along. They will take your ideas, take credit for your work, take your credibility and reputation, take your intellectual property, take your own ideals and turn them against you, take your money, take your friends, take your career, life’s ambition, destiny, take your soul. And then no one will want the hollowed-out remains of what once was a very fine young man.

28. They are mostly either sluts or teases

Which do you want: a girl who leads you on, wastes your time, energy, and money, having no intention of sleeping with you at any point, and ultimately leaving you high and dry? Or would you rather have a woman everyone has already had, and anyone can have? Because those are your options when you pull from the feminist pool.

29. They live in the past

Your past. Their past. The relationship’s past. A thousand years before either of you were born. Expect them to keep bringing it up, even as it becomes less and less relevant.

30. They are insecure

They failed to live up to the male ideal of what a female should be. They have bad karma. they have mental problems. They have physical defects. Whatever it is, they are insecure about it, and they will project that insecurity onto you, and over-compensate for their inferiority complex by dominating you somehow.


What does the female community do to men they perceive as ‘anti-social’ or ‘misogynist’? They ostracize them! Perhaps what’s good for the goose is good for the gander. Don’t give these women the time of day. Maybe a little time out in the corner will change their perspective. As for male feminists, most of them are insincere, and their motivations are transparent, but their tactics are the same as the sisterhood’s.

The Cycle of Romantic Victimology

It starts in high school. He’s a horny liar driven by hormones. She’s an irrational princess living in fantasy world, driven by emotions. He tells her everything she wants to hear. The fairy-tale where they ride off into the sunset and live happily ever after.

Eventually, she puts out. After awhile, he gets bored of her. All her little imperfections he ignored in the name of getting laid start to really bother him. He begins to wonder if he has cheated himself, and begins to find other people attractive. Finally, he breaks her heart by leaving her and pursuing other women she knows, possibly even her friends or family.

She spends a lot of time depressed. She feels ruined by false promises and bad sex. The next man won’t find her as desirable as when she was young and pristine. The first one’s insincerity discredits every other man who uses the same lines, even if they are sincere. But eventually, life goes on. She is still human after all, with needs and desires. She moves on. She doesn’t want to let one asshole ruin her ability to trust others and have a good time being social.

And then the victim becomes the victimizer. It’s simple transference. She’s still mad at that first guy, so she projects him onto random guys she meets, and hurts them before they get the chance to hurt her, thus giving her the feeling of having ‘won’ the relationship. She finds them in nightclubs, bars, community college. She leads them on, spends their money, loves them and leaves them, or just teases them. They’re all just douchebags anyway, at least in her mind. Whether they really are, or not. Some of them don’t become douchebags until she works them over, and just like her, her victims become victimizers. It’s all nothing but a jealousy competition.

Eventually, her lifestyle catches up to her. An unwanted pregnancy, career or scholastic failure, an STD, a substance abuse problem. She ends up in counseling. After winning her trust through empathizing with her plight, her therapist finally breaks it to her: You have a victim complex. You need to start raising your standards, taking control of your life, refusing to play the same old games everyone else is playing. No more business as usual: set your mark, and enforce it.

For the nice guy from a decent background, with a good head on his shoulders, it begins later. College, maybe. He’s been socially isolated since high school glory days, if they ever even happened for him at all, gone past. The flaw in the Golden Rule is that it assumes that everyone wants the same thing. Most women want to be left alone, so they leave him alone, to his disappointment. Most of his sexual appetites are filled by porn. Women only play bait and reel games, and he’s smart enough not to chase rabbits down their holes. Maybe he has the odd encounter with the opposite sex in college, but they aren’t ultimately very satisfying, even if he brags to his friends to pump up his own hype.

Eventually he graduates, settles into a career, and starts feeling entitled to a real relationship. Marriage, family, social stability. But dating sucks for him, like it does for most men, even the handsome and wealthy young professionals: He takes some ungrateful bitch out, only to find out she’s an idiot, and then he doesn’t even get any, nor does he even end up wanting it most of the time. He wants it from some hypothetical perfect girl, but never the flawed piece of shit to whom he has actual access. Even if he does score, it’s usually with a well-used village idiot, and he feels shame afterwards.

If he has any standards at all, he finds the women who meet them to be extremely uncooperative. He knows himself well enough to know what he likes and doesn’t like in a mate, and he always feels like he’s settling, so sometimes he just gives up, not dating or being social for months or even years at at a time. Society can’t or won’t produce an equal partner for him, so instead, what they do is keep him alone and miserable until he is older, less attractive, less well-off, and more desperate. Then they try to get him to settle for someone who is beneath him, so that men of more privileged backgrounds can take all the best opportunities for themselves.

These guys who talk about getting pussy all the time… they are either liars or rapists. They exaggerate their lifestyles to try and hype themselves and make everyone else jealous. He falls victim to the competition from other males and even females, who sabotage him and lie behind his back. If he is lucky, his career is unaffected by his lack of social capital, or the emotional instability of being single and alone in the world.

There are plenty of options he doesn’t want, but the most desirable women have all the options, all the social capital, and he is always a mere supplicant, even if over-qualified. Often times, the men women ignore completely end up better off than the ones they take some interest in… just enough interest to get his hopes up and break his heart before they move on to the next exploitable target of opportunity… He has enough of a social conscience to not want to exploit women, but sometimes it seems to him that’s what they want. And sometimes he feels exploited.

It’s sad that there are actually uglier nerds even more socially alienated him, or militant feminists, whether male or female, and they consider him ‘over-privileged’… If you consider it a ‘privilege’ to waste a bunch of time, energy, and money just to find out that she’s incompatible and you don’t get any, then yeah, maybe… He tries to explain to the betas that they aren’t missing much. There are still people who say he’s gotten more chicks than them, or more attractive women than them… But every woman he ever actually got ended up screwing him around. The emotional trauma and baggage reputation isn’t usually worth the rare sex that actually happens. Even when he has a good career, money in the bank, is relatively attractive and talented, women don’t take him that much more seriously than the guy who doesn’t have any of that going for him.

The anti-marriage atheist crowd tries to brainwash him into becoming a polyamorist, or at the very least, spend a bunch of money trying. Whores play ego games, and try to make him feel bad for not getting laid. Feminists and religious people alike tell him he is going to Hell for the little sex he has actually had. A female’s desire can make a man a target… in a bad way. In a town full of white knights trying to save women from their own bad judgment, misinformationists who either break down their social enemies or hype their social allies, people who are judgmental of eachother’s relationships (Do you really think THAT’S the right guy for her?!?!) And let’s not forget about insecurely jealous lesbians and feminists who want to sabotage any kind of healthy heterosexual relationship, which they see as ‘patriarchal’. Liberal, pretentious, big city bullshit, basically

Eventually the man develops learned helplessness. He hates being alone, but doesn’t want to settle for an unsatisfying partner, and the women to whom he is most attracted physically seem to be over-privileged, under-capable, and lacking in social conscience. When he finally meets the girl from the first part of this essay, she thinks she knows what’s wrong with him, because she assumes that this terrible thing she just learned about herself must also apply to him.

“I think you have a victim complex,” she tells him, “Grow some balls. Man up.” She’s basically projecting her victim complex onto an actual victim, which is the worst form of victim-blaming there is, because it discredits the victim even as it blames them. And in the case of women, ‘taking control of your sex life’ is ’empowerment’, but for men, ‘taking control’ is rape.

But she doesn’t realize that, even though they ended up in the same place, he took a totally different route to get there. Nobody ever wined or dined him, he paid for everything the whole time. It was either that or give up and be alone. But the women from his past were all just using him for material things, just as sure as the men from her past were using her for sex. Perhaps at the time, their social lives made them feel empowered, at least more than the average frustrated chump, but looking back, they both realize what fools they have been. Really, either one of the genders involved in this story could be the victim or the victimizer, chronologically, in that order, or both at once.